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The best synths for realistic acoustic instruments sounds ?


Post Posted Sun Nov 30, 2008 11:46 am
Nico_Noyau
Assistant Admin & Bootleg Expert

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Posts: 5681
Location: Aix en Provence, France

Hey all !!

I would have never thought one day I'd say that, but I'm looking for... realistic acoustic instruments sounds ! :D
I have the Roland XP80, which is nice, of course, but it's definately not its cup of tea to play realistic guitars with vibrato, fingers sliding and all, nice saxophones, really realistic pianos with which you can move the pedals, open the superior part...

So I'm looking for an addition to it on which I could play all that, but I wouldn't buy that synth before some months as I'm short in money now :P

I was pretty interested in the Korg KARMA because of it's nice arpeggio algorythm which allows you to play very nice sequences (like the slap bass sequence played by JMJ in AERO Intro [concert]).
Gert told me the Yamaha Motif was currently the best for this use, and I have heard that the Roland Fantom serie was not really the bet for those realistic sounds, so I'm lost :P

Any advices would be good (even Andro, with VSTs :P) ! :D
Thanks all ;)
Nicolas
Image Image
My music, webdev, photos, videos : www.nicolaskern.fr
Robert Dugenou

Attended :
Teo&Tea showcase in Cannes [France] - 20/05/2007
Théâtre Marigny, Paris [France] - 15/12/2007
<2010> Marseille [France] - 20/03/2010
Monaco - 01/07/2011
Arènes de Nîmes – 14/07/2016
Post Posted Sun Nov 30, 2008 11:56 am
jarrekid


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Posts: 1100
Location: Stroud, Gloucestershire, England

IMO you should just get a VST sampler with a load of good multi-samples loaded on.
Post Posted Sun Nov 30, 2008 12:21 pm
GeeJee
The GUV'NOR

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Location: Zwolle, The Netherlands
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I haven't said it's the best, but it has some very good samples, yes...
:mrgreen:
Post Posted Sun Nov 30, 2008 12:24 pm
Nico_Noyau
Assistant Admin & Bootleg Expert

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Location: Aix en Provence, France

Which VST then ? There is the EastWest Ministry Of Rock which seems to be good, but I'd prefer a demo version of it to see what I can do :?
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My music, webdev, photos, videos : www.nicolaskern.fr
Robert Dugenou

Attended :
Teo&Tea showcase in Cannes [France] - 20/05/2007
Théâtre Marigny, Paris [France] - 15/12/2007
<2010> Marseille [France] - 20/03/2010
Monaco - 01/07/2011
Arènes de Nîmes – 14/07/2016
Post Posted Mon Dec 01, 2008 10:24 am
BAIKONUR


Posts: 3

This is now the bench mark for trumpets and it's not too expensive....

http://www.samplemodeling.com/en/products.php

Before now, I've been complimented on my accoustic guitar playing, but sadly it was this...

http://www.musiclab.com/products/realgtr_info.htm

They also do an electric guitar now aswell, which is cool.

For stings I use Garratin Personal Orchestra and Eastwest Symphonic Strings. But both of these require the effort to be put in to make them sound real.

B
Post Posted Mon Dec 01, 2008 11:05 am
Normund


Posts: 17
Location: Riga

As Jarre himself has said, if he wanted to use a real violin, he'd use it, but apart from that his copy of Eminent serves well as a source of string orchestra sounds, and more. Many string and wind instruments are capable of creating sounds with such nuances that cannot be emulated within the scope of one sample. So you have to look at it either from the perspective of a musician playing a classical instrument, say a cello, or from the viewpoint of a synthesizer fan who just needs the sound, however close to or far away from the acoustic instrument it may be. And that's a big difference here.

Try this or similar: http://www.jr.com/garritan/pe/GAT_GPO3/. Some other libraries are as big as 20 DVDs. :)
NG
Post Posted Mon Dec 01, 2008 1:15 pm
BAIKONUR


Posts: 3

Normund wrote:As Jarre himself has said, if he wanted to use a real violin, he'd use it, but apart from that his copy of Eminent serves well as a source of string orchestra sounds, and more. Many string and wind instruments are capable of creating sounds with such nuances that cannot be emulated within the scope of one sample.
that's why most sample collections have on average 8 and up to 24 layers of samples plus thousands of modulation, articulation and bowing effects.

Rumour has it that the score for Pirates of the caribbean 3 by Hans Zimmer was done on Computer and no 'real' instuments were used... That's what I've been told anyway.
Post Posted Mon Dec 01, 2008 9:11 pm
matt222


Posts: 225
Location: Derby, England
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Yamaha VL1 and VP1. Both superb physical modelling synths of acoustic instruments - some sounds are astonishing.
EXPENSIVE. The VL 1 retailed at £4000 and the VP1 I think went at around £10000! Both were produced in limited numbers.
Post Posted Tue Dec 02, 2008 11:29 am
radek tymecki


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Posts: 959

Nico_Noyau wrote:Hey all !!

I would have never thought one day I'd say that, but I'm looking for... realistic acoustic instruments sounds ! :D
I have the Roland XP80, which is nice, of course, but it's definately not its cup of tea to play realistic guitars with vibrato, fingers sliding and all, nice saxophones, really realistic pianos with which you can move the pedals, open the superior part...

So I'm looking for an addition to it on which I could play all that, but I wouldn't buy that synth before some months as I'm short in money now :P

I was pretty interested in the Korg KARMA because of it's nice arpeggio algorythm which allows you to play very nice sequences (like the slap bass sequence played by JMJ in AERO Intro [concert]).
Gert told me the Yamaha Motif was currently the best for this use, and I have heard that the Roland Fantom serie was not really the bet for those realistic sounds, so I'm lost :P

Any advices would be good (even Andro, with VSTs :P) ! :D
Thanks all ;)
Nicolas
Just look on Tyros 3 or Motif XS6 demos or so on Youtube ;)
Post Posted Tue Dec 02, 2008 10:35 pm
Nico_Noyau
Assistant Admin & Bootleg Expert

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Posts: 5681
Location: Aix en Provence, France

Thanks for the comments, I have found some nifty VST, I hope I'll make good use of them (not much though, I prefer real beasts :hypocrit:)
About the Tyros, I'm definately not a fan, but quite fan of the Motif though, but the price is much too high :?
Image Image
My music, webdev, photos, videos : www.nicolaskern.fr
Robert Dugenou

Attended :
Teo&Tea showcase in Cannes [France] - 20/05/2007
Théâtre Marigny, Paris [France] - 15/12/2007
<2010> Marseille [France] - 20/03/2010
Monaco - 01/07/2011
Arènes de Nîmes – 14/07/2016
Post Posted Wed Dec 03, 2008 6:03 pm
Normund


Posts: 17
Location: Riga

BAIKONUR wrote: that's why most sample collections have on average 8 and up to 24 layers of samples plus thousands of modulation, articulation and bowing effects.
Yes, and with such a wealth of layers at one's command, all of a sudden it becomes veeery easy to emulate a real violin on a synthesizer. It's only that one has to split the keyboard into several parts to play even a short staff piece smoothly, to say the least.
This approach is essentially amateurish, no matter how large that sample collection is.
NG
Post Posted Thu Dec 04, 2008 9:25 am
BAIKONUR


Posts: 3

Normund wrote:
BAIKONUR wrote: that's why most sample collections have on average 8 and up to 24 layers of samples plus thousands of modulation, articulation and bowing effects.

This approach is essentially amateurish, no matter how large that sample collection is.
Why?

Rather than putting splits in, most people just tend to use different tracks for their different sections.
Post Posted Thu Dec 04, 2008 1:55 pm
Normund


Posts: 17
Location: Riga

Well, Baikonur, the way I see it is this ... if you wanted a juicy synthesizer sound, you'd look for the right instrument, not just try to combine several sounds of an average-sounding keyboard to push them up, including sound processing, wouldn't you. If this is all about generating sounds at one's leisure, regardless of the fact that being able to play a musical piece live is one of the most important criteria for the ability to create music, then yes - samples can be helpful. We end up with something like the Enigma project, which is a purely commercial product, as far as the last album is concerned.
But what if we asked the opinion of an experienced violinist who has toyed with some VST tool of this sort? Would we get the same answer that seems to suit commercially-oriented users who, say, are content with the manufacturer saying that he has released a new photo camera, which now shoots at 14 megapixels, while the sensor remains the same that was used for their previous model, with 8 megapixels only, or overwhelmed by the fact that now they can have a symphonic orchestra at their fingertips, with thousands of sounds to choose from, as if the trick to compose a good quality song was merely to use thousands of sounds?
I think it's the figures that nowadays keeps back so many people from questioning whether that's all for real. Do you want me to ask some professional piano or violin players to comment on this issue? The matter becomes even worse when we look at vocal performances and VST instruments designed to emulate them but this is perhaps due to our being a singing nation with strong choirs of international fame. No way of mistaking a sampled synthesizer vocal for a real singer, unless the vocal phrases are very short and well-disguised by sound effects and backdrops.
NG
Post Posted Fri Dec 05, 2008 12:56 am
Pete


User avatar
Posts: 92

Nico, and what about a good old hardware sampler?

The Roland S-760 for example, is considered the best sounding S series sampler and today it can retail for 150 Euros, with full memory (32 MB) and the digital I/O option which included mouse and Monitor option (you can hook to it also a TV if I am not wrong).
Hans Zimmer used to have 18 (!) S-760 for composing his music and it's plenty of really good sounding libraries on CD-ROM. And, by the way, you can load and save from SCSI devices like ZIP/JAZ and CD-ROMs which sell on ebay at ridiculous prices too.

Or an AKAI S3000XL? It retails at 150-250 Euro fully expanded with 32 MB digital I/O SCSI 8 outputs outputs (just not for the Effect option board EB-16 which is the same for the MPC-2000XL and that is still expensive today, new or second hand)

And a Kurzweil K2000R with 64 MB? Kurzweil was famous for their great sounding libraries, and it reads AKAI and Roland CD-ROMs, although it reads programs and samples with loop points but envelopes settings and other synth parameters are mostly interpreted.

And by the way, if you want to read correctly AKAI libraries the best way to do it is... with an AKAI sampler...! :punch:
I tried once an A/B test of an AKAI library on a S3000XL vs Kontakt and there was a BIG difference, especially if the library is carefully programmed for that instrument (envelopes, LFOs, velocity crossfades etc.)

Size does matter? Today's libraries are expressed in Gigabyte, with 24 bits as standard and a great waste of space caused by very long samples with no loop points (who cares today of looping a sample with gigabytes of RAM?) Untill year 2000 sampling was an art...!
I feel boring here, but I have heard a demo composed on one of those huge VST libraries like the Vienna or something and it sounded like a big MIDIfile...
So the skill is to know how to play them masking as much as you can and understanding where the samples feel natural and less obvious. And in the past I have heard people doing miracles on the AKAI S1000 with 8 MB of RAM...!
Post Posted Fri Dec 05, 2008 10:25 am
BAIKONUR


Posts: 3

Exactly Pete,

My Akai S 6000 is still in daily use (with another two as spares just in case!)

You cannot put a value on experience and knowing how to orchestrate. I've seen studio's with Computers stuffed to the gills with VSL and GigaStudio (R.I.P) and what was comming out of the speakers was dire.

For example:

For strings to play a simple chord sequence for example, you don't just hold down 3 or 4 keys and hope for the best.
It's about how each individual instument comes in, sustains, how much vibrato is on the string, etc.

Failing all that (and if budget allows) go and record you orcherstra in Prague. Dead cheap, compared to Western Europe and the US, with top (if not better) musicians and studios! :)







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